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User is offline Juha 

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Posted 27 December 2016 - 08:40 PM (#1)

Running Daminion Server in a VM in NAS


Hi!

I'm looking for NAS for my personal use and I came across some models that have virtualization support inbuilt (e.g. QNAP TS-251A). Has anybody tried to install a virtual Windows + Daminion Server into such NAS device? In my thinking this would make it possible to create Scheme B configuration inside the NAS without additional server PC.
– Did it work?
– How was/is the performace (compared to standard NAS/Scheme A installation)?
– Any other comments?

-Juha
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User is offline SergeS 

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 02:37 PM (#2)

View PostJuha, on 27 December 2016 - 08:40 PM, said:

Hi!

I'm looking for NAS for my personal use and I came across some models that have virtualization support inbuilt (e.g. QNAP TS-251A). Has anybody tried to install a virtual Windows + Daminion Server into such NAS device? In my thinking this would make it possible to create Scheme B configuration inside the NAS without additional server PC.
– Did it work?
– How was/is the performace (compared to standard NAS/Scheme A installation)?
– Any other comments?

-Juha


I have tried to install Daminion on various virtual Windows under phpVirtualBox (on Xpenoogy NAS on HP Microsrver N54L with 8 Gb ram), it works with no problem, main problem is tooo sloooow virtualized network connection. I have dedicated 2 Gb memory for Windows VM with Daminion server with web-server, may be needs more. Or, may ge, my hardware needs to be upgraded, h54l is not the fastest pc now ;-), xeon processor seems more promising.

P.s. I am using Daminion at home, for family photos, and i like the idea to keep daminion server always up and running, but i do not want to keep dedicated windows pc for that. One way to solve this contradiction is to use windows virtualized pc, but another way is to port Daminion server to native package for some NAS systems, for example Synology NAS already has PostgreSQL data base, so porting may ge not so complex, but dfinitelly will attract more users, network storages are polular theese days. Daminion people, do you have any plans to make packages for NAS?
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User is offline Daria 

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:57 PM (#3)

View PostSergeS, on 31 December 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:


P.s. I am using Daminion at home, for family photos, and i like the idea to keep daminion server always up and running, but i do not want to keep dedicated windows pc for that. One way to solve this contradiction is to use windows virtualized pc, but another way is to port Daminion server to native package for some NAS systems, for example Synology NAS already has PostgreSQL data base, so porting may ge not so complex, but dfinitelly will attract more users, network storages are polular theese days. Daminion people, do you have any plans to make packages for NAS?


Hello SergeS,

It could be done in theory, but it would drastically decrease performance on NAS, because NAS systems are designed primarily for storing media archives, not different programs.
The developer guys voted against it, sorry.

Best regards,
Daria


User is offline SergeS 

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 05:15 AM (#4)

View PostDaria, on 10 January 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

Hello SergeS,

It could be done in theory, but it would drastically decrease performance on NAS, because NAS systems are designed primarily for storing media archives, not different programs.
The developer guys voted against it, sorry.

Best regards,
Daria


:-(

p.s. I have Synology NAS, and a lot of different programs (services) on it, such as PostgreSQL and MariaDB database servers, VirtualBox with few virtual OSes, http-server (actually - three of them), around 20 Synology and third-parties software packages installed, and so on...
Modern NASes are not only media storages anymore, for example, here is not full list of software packages (programs) which may be installed on my NAS from repositaries... Still thinking it would be very convinient to have Daminion server in this list too.
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User is offline Paul Barrett 

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 03:10 PM (#5)

View PostSergeS, on 21 January 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

:-(

p.s. I have Synology NAS, and a lot of different programs (services) on it, such as PostgreSQL and MariaDB database servers, VirtualBox with few virtual OSes, http-server (actually - three of them), around 20 Synology and third-parties software packages installed, and so on...
Modern NASes are not only media storages anymore, for example, here is not full list of software packages (programs) which may be installed on my NAS from repositories... Still thinking it would be very convenient to have Daminion server in this list too.


I agree completely with Serge. I have many apps running on my low budget Synology DS216j, including WordPress and Synology's own Photo Station which has a wonderful multiuser web based UI and mobile apps which I, and my family members, use intensively. The thing it lacks is decent metadata management which is the only reason why I use Daminion.

If a dedicated app like Photo Station can run on my small NAS then that completely demolishes the idea that a photo management app can't run on a NAS. QED. Any suggestion that a NAS couldn't hack it is 5 years out of date and is complete nonsense.

If Synology get their act together and start to support metadata properly, Daminion is dead in the prosumer market place. I, for one, would have no further need of it. Conversely, if Daminion was ported to Synology it could grab a significant user base. The Photo Station application has been downloaded over EIGHT MILLION times. Using an exceptionally conservative estimate, if only 1% of those people paid, say, $50 for a Damion Synology app that's a potential $4million revenue. I'd guess that the cost of porting it would be a very small part of that. Who would pay $50 to use a Daminion Synology package? Hell, I would! I'd pay $75

I was very surprised to find that I could use Daminion for free. Reasonably priced browser based apps aimed at millions of users is the name of the game these days. If there is a definite product direction to ignore this space could you let us all know. Because if that's the case I think I will revise my metadata strategy so that I can use Photo Station's more limited but future-proofed capabilities. There is a market space out there waiting to be grabbed. Google, Microsoft, Apple, Dropbox and the rest - how many of them have good metadata management? Precisely NONE.

You have a couple of very confused users here - and some more out there as well I expect.

Of course, if you are about to launch a Daminion in the cloud service then I could understand your reluctance to port to a NAS. Although, having said that, wordpress.com flourishes despite the Synology WordPress portation.

- Paul

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User is offline Alexey Syukosev 

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:20 AM (#6)

All NAS systems contains low-level performance processors. These processors completely fits all needs for file operations (Copy, Move, Delete). Daminion Server it is not the just system for file operation (Move, Delete, Copy). Daminion Server needs to open files, search in files, write to files, generate preview and thumbnails, operate with high-loaded queries to DB. NAS processors will dramatically decrease Daminion Server performance.
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User is offline Paul Barrett 

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 09:52 AM (#7)

View PostAlexey Syukosev, on 30 January 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

All NAS systems contains low-level performance processors. These processors completely fits all needs for file operations (Copy, Move, Delete). Daminion Server it is not the just system for file operation (Move, Delete, Copy). Daminion Server needs to open files, search in files, write to files, generate preview and thumbnails, operate with high-loaded queries to DB. NAS processors will dramatically decrease Daminion Server performance.


OK so would you like me to give you a demo of Synology Photo Station doing all those things on my entry level NAS?
In fact, if you would like to download DS Photo to your PC / tablet / phone I will give you a time limited login to my system, so you can see for yourself. I sat in my son's house yesterday and logged him into Photo Station as a remote user and response was excellent. OK it could be faster, but with no comparable cloud offering it's totally acceptable. It'll even run reasonably well on my phone over 4G.

Indexed search is as fast on Photo Station as it is is on Daminion's PC client. I can show you it opening files, writing to files, generating previews and thumbnails, tagging with keywords, doing face recognition, geolocating. In short, for the prosumer, there is only one thing that Photo Station can't do that Daminion can, and that is provide proper support for metadata tags.

In Synology, the People tag can only be applied by lassoing a face and entering a name and Locations can only be assigned by geotagging. There is no concept of Events, Categories or the myriad other tags that Daminion Supports. But prosumers are generally not interested in many of those.

Photo Station can be forced to support any category you want though, by converting it to a keyword. They are flattened, not hierarchical, which creates some UX issues, but it works. And it has mobile apps.

For prosumers like me, Daminion's strength is its metadata management. Port your capabilities to Synology and we have the best of both worlds. Synology recently killed of its own blog software in favour of a WordPress portation. Who knows, with Daminion on Synology that might do the same for Photo Station? :)

Daminion is a fabulous concept, but Client / Server is so 1990's. :)

- Paul






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User is offline Juha 

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:26 AM (#8)

Hi!

Just looking at the specs of some these NAS boxes they host a decent Intel dual/quad core processors. They are not high end i7s, but IMO capable of doing general data processing above copy/move/delete disk operations.

-Juha
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User is offline Marc 

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 09:50 AM (#9)

View PostAlexey Syukosev, on 30 January 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

All NAS systems contains low-level performance processors. These processors completely fits all needs for file operations (Copy, Move, Delete). Daminion Server it is not the just system for file operation (Move, Delete, Copy). Daminion Server needs to open files, search in files, write to files, generate preview and thumbnails, operate with high-loaded queries to DB. NAS processors will dramatically decrease Daminion Server performance.

I think you are missing the point. Nowadays, what is the difference between a NAS and a PC ? Nothing. Remove the monitor of the PC and you have a NAS. No, your problem is that you are developing for the Windows platform, even using IIS as the web server for Daminion, so you simply don't have the expertise or resources for proposing something for the Linux platform which is the platform usually present in NAS.
Personally, NAS or not NAS, I would prefer to have the server part of Daminion on a Linux platform, same for the Web server. It is too bad you didn't choose Apache for the Web server part of Daminion. Any way, I hope you will consider developing a Linux (NAS) version in the future.
-marc-
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User is offline Juha 

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:01 PM (#10)

This reminds me of an old thread from five years ago.

Juha
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User is offline SergeS 

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 05:15 AM (#11)

View PostJuha, on 01 February 2017 - 10:01 PM, said:

This reminds me of an old thread from five years ago.


And reminds me this is a second most-popular suggested feature.
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User is offline SergeS 

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 06:31 AM (#12)

View PostAlexey Syukosev, on 30 January 2017 - 09:20 AM, said:

All NAS systems contains low-level performance processors. These processors completely fits all needs for file operations (Copy, Move, Delete). Daminion Server it is not the just system for file operation (Move, Delete, Copy). Daminion Server needs to open files, search in files, write to files, generate preview and thumbnails, operate with high-loaded queries to DB. NAS processors will dramatically decrease Daminion Server performance.


I am saving photos as a RAW, my typical file size is around 40-50 MB, I am keeping all photos on NAS but Daminion server is located on my desktop PC. When I am updating tags and keywords it takes around 40 seconds per file because each file needs to be transferred back and forth from NAS to my desktop. Placing Daminion server on the NAS will let me avoid double transferring each file, even if NAS itself will work slower than my desktop (which is true) the overall performance will not so suffer. As a additional benefit - NAS is on 24/7 so Daminion server is always ready.

BTW, I will send you PM with test login to my NAS, you can make sure it is not so slow. :-)
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User is offline Paul Barrett 

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 07:31 AM (#13)

Quote

BTW, I will send you PM with test login to my NAS, you can make sure it is not so slow. :-)


And I will do the same for my NAS, with a login to Photo Station so you can see just how well a NAS supports a photo management app.

Mine is a very low end spec NAS too, by the way. I am saving photos as JPEG and scans as TIFF so some of the latter files get up to 60MB

Paul
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User is offline SergeS 

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 04:32 PM (#14)

View PostSergeS, on 02 February 2017 - 05:15 AM, said:

And reminds me this is a second most-popular suggested feature.


I would like to come back with the idea to make Daminion as a Synology NAS package...
Why I would like to come back?
Because of this requested feature became first most-popular suggestion...
https://daminion.use...ral/filters/top

p.s. I am proud it was my suggestion, even if it is hidden under anonymous nick-name :-)
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User is offline Paul Barrett 

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 05:00 PM (#15)

View PostSergeS, on 16 July 2017 - 04:32 PM, said:

Because of this requested feature became first most-popular suggestion...
https://daminion.use...ral/filters/top

p.s. I am proud it was my suggestion, even if it is hidden under anonymous nick-name :-)


It was a great idea, and still is, Serge and it's even better that it has now become the customers' Number 1 request.

So, come on Daminion, what's your official response, please? Everything is going to the cloud. Please support this "personal cloud" request.

Paul



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User is offline Paul Barrett 

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 05:09 PM (#16)

I have upgraded my Synology NAS. It's still at the lowest end of the range, but look at the system specs. It's no slouch and would easily run a Daminion package:

Attached Image: 2017-07-16_18-03-04.png
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User is offline Fuchs 

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 12:40 PM (#17)

i would also say if its the top entry in your uservoice site, it should considered as a new feature:

https://daminion.use...ral/filters/top
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User is offline Paul Barrett 

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Posted 20 October 2017 - 07:23 PM (#18)

View PostJuha, on 27 December 2016 - 08:40 PM, said:

Hi!

I'm looking for NAS for my personal use and I came across some models that have virtualization support inbuilt (e.g. QNAP TS-251A). Has anybody tried to install a virtual Windows + Daminion Server into such NAS device? In my thinking this would make it possible to create Scheme B configuration inside the NAS without additional server PC.
– Did it work?
– How was/is the performace (compared to standard NAS/Scheme A installation)?
– Any other comments?

-Juha


Synology are in Beta phase for DSM 6.2 which includes a Virtual Machine Manager reportedly capable of running the following servers:

Windows Server 2008
Windows Server 2008 R2
Windows Server 2012
Windows Server 2012 R2
Windows Server 2016


Notes

  • At least 20 GB of disk space is required for Windows 8.1, 10, and Windows Server.
  • At least 2 GB of memory is required for the 64-bit version of Windows 10.

A synology guru is going to work with me to see if we can get Daminion's web server to run in one of these. If there's going to a problem it will be RAM. My Synology DS 716+II has only 1GB and it's not upgradeable.


Paul


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User is offline Daria 

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 08:30 PM (#19)

Hi Paul,

I'm afraid 1GB isn't gonna be enought to run Daminion server without any issues. But it's up to you to try :) Please keep us informed.

Regards,
Daria


User is offline Paul Barrett 

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Posted 26 October 2017 - 09:05 PM (#20)

View PostDaria, on 26 October 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

Hi Paul,

I'm afraid 1GB isn't gonna be enought to run Daminion server without any issues. But it's up to you to try :) Please keep us informed.

Regards,
Daria


OK, thanks Daria, so how much RAM would you normally recommend for a windows server



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